(και ναι, είναι ένα λίγο μεγάλο post!)
Ας υποθέσουμε ότι είμαι ένας άνθρωπος που του αρέσει πάρα πολύ η κέτσαπ. Έστω ότι μου αρέσει τόσο πολύ που τη βάζω σε οποιοδήποτε φαγητό και αν τρώω γιατί μετατρέπει όλα τα άνοστα και μη φαγητά σε πολύ πιο ενδιαφέροντα, παρά το ότι, ναι, είναι μια ανθυγιεινή τροφή.
Συνεπώς, όταν θα βρεθώ σε ένα κλασικό φαστφουντάδικο (συγγνώμη για την απαίσια λέξη), και έστω ότι θα φάω πατάτες τηγανητές, θα πάρω και θα βάλω μπόλικη κέτσαπ στις πατάτες μου. Όλα οκ μέχρις εδώ. Δική μου η λόξα, δική μου και η δόξα (καλό; Μπααα…). Φανταστείτε τώρα την ώρα που βάζω την κέτσαπ να πιτσιλώ και σας που κάθεστε στα διπλανά μου τραπέζια και να σας λερώνω απροκάλυπτα! Επίσης, για να το κάνουμε λίγο χειρότερο (αλλά και για να είναι πιο πλήρης η αντιστοίχιση που θα ακολουθήσει), επιμένω και σας αναγκάζω να δοκιμάσετε και εσείς, έναν προς έναν, την κέτσαπ του μαγαζιού και να βάλετε κέτσαπ και στο δικό σας φαγητό!
Πως θα με αντιμετωπίζατε? Πρώτο πιο εύκολο, θα θεωρούμουν στάνταρ σαλεμένη. Επιπλέον, θα με σκυλοβρίζατε όλοι σας. Τέλος, σίγουρα θα υπήρχαν κάποιοι πιο θερμοκέφαλοι που θα με πλάκωναν στις σφαλιάρες.
Ας υποθέσουμε ότι είμαι ένας άνθρωπος που του αρέσει πάρα πολύ η κέτσαπ. Έστω ότι μου αρέσει τόσο πολύ που τη βάζω σε οποιοδήποτε φαγητό και αν τρώω γιατί μετατρέπει όλα τα άνοστα και μη φαγητά σε πολύ πιο ενδιαφέροντα, παρά το ότι, ναι, είναι μια ανθυγιεινή τροφή.
Συνεπώς, όταν θα βρεθώ σε ένα κλασικό φαστφουντάδικο (συγγνώμη για την απαίσια λέξη), και έστω ότι θα φάω πατάτες τηγανητές, θα πάρω και θα βάλω μπόλικη κέτσαπ στις πατάτες μου. Όλα οκ μέχρις εδώ. Δική μου η λόξα, δική μου και η δόξα (καλό; Μπααα…). Φανταστείτε τώρα την ώρα που βάζω την κέτσαπ να πιτσιλώ και σας που κάθεστε στα διπλανά μου τραπέζια και να σας λερώνω απροκάλυπτα! Επίσης, για να το κάνουμε λίγο χειρότερο (αλλά και για να είναι πιο πλήρης η αντιστοίχιση που θα ακολουθήσει), επιμένω και σας αναγκάζω να δοκιμάσετε και εσείς, έναν προς έναν, την κέτσαπ του μαγαζιού και να βάλετε κέτσαπ και στο δικό σας φαγητό!
Πως θα με αντιμετωπίζατε? Πρώτο πιο εύκολο, θα θεωρούμουν στάνταρ σαλεμένη. Επιπλέον, θα με σκυλοβρίζατε όλοι σας. Τέλος, σίγουρα θα υπήρχαν κάποιοι πιο θερμοκέφαλοι που θα με πλάκωναν στις σφαλιάρες.
Έστω τώρα an other person. Σε αυτόν, αρέσει πάρα πολύ το τσιγάρο. Καπνίζει πριν τον καφέ το πρωί, μετά τον καφέ, στο διάλειμμα στη δουλειά, μετά το φαγητό, πριν το σεξ, βεβαίως μετά το σεξ κλπ… Βρίσκεται και αυτός στο ίδιο φαστφουντάδικο (not again..) που είμαι και γω για να φάει (όχι εμένα). Όπως πάντα, μόλις τελειώσει το φαγητό του ανάβει ένα τσιγαράκι. Για να κάνει αυτός αυτό που τόσο πολύ του αρέσει (και δικαίωμα του είναι να κάνει ότι ακριβώς γουστάρει) εγώ είμαι υποχρεωμένη αρχικά να σκυλοβρωμίσω. Είμαι υποχρεωμένη, αν και είμαι ολοκάθαρη, με τα ωραία μου μυρωδάτα μαλλάκια και τα φρεσκοπλυμένα ρουχαλάκια μου, να ποτίσω από τσιγαρίλα, χωρίς τη θέληση μου. Επιπλέον, και πολύ σημαντικότερο, υποχρεώνομαι στο παθητικό κάπνισμα που μου επιβάλλει αυτός ο άνθρωπος χωρίς τη συγκατάθεση μου (με το δεδομένο ότι δεν είναι κάποιος φίλος μου που μπορεί να έχω επιλέξει να κάνω κάποια υποχώρηση).
Σε αυτήν την περίπτωση όμως, που είναι πολύ χειρότερη από τον παραλληλισμό με την κέτσαπ, κανείς δε μου δίνει το αυτονόητο του δικαιώματος μου να διαμαρτυρηθώ και αυτομάτως να βρω το απόλυτο δίκιο μου στο γεγονός ότι καταπατούνται τα δικαιώματα μου και τα «ατομικά σύνορα» που καθένας μας οφείλει να προσέχει να μην ξεπεράσει παρενοχλώντας έτσι τους συνανθρώπους του.
Πως θα αντιμετωπιζόμουν αν σηκωνόμουν και απαιτούσα σε αυτό τον κλειστό χώρο να σβήσουν το τσιγάρο τους όλοι, ένας προς ένας? Στάνταρ, θα με κοιτούσαν όλοι σα να είμαι η τρελή του χωριού.
Δεν το παίζω ξαφνικά όσια Μαρία (ούτε Μαρία η άσχημη ;-)), αλλά νομίζω ότι έχει παρατραβήξει αυτός ο παγιωμένος τραμπουκισμός και η καλομαθημένη συμπεριφορά από τη μεριά των φίλων καπνιστών. Το γεγονός ότι είναι πάρα πολλοί στον αριθμό δε σημαίνει ότι έχουν και το δίκιο με το μέρος τους.
Δεν γίνεται να σεβαστούν και αυτοί το δικαίωμα μας να αναπνέουμε ελεύθερα και να μυρίζουμε όπως επιλέγουμε να μυρίζουμε…;
Γνωρίζω ότι πάρα πολλοί από εσάς πιθανόν να είστε καπνιστές, και μπορεί να σας κακοφανούν όλα τα παραπάνω, αλλά… για αυτό τα γράφω.
Μήπως συγκινηθήκατε λίγο να μας σεβαστείτε και μας τους άκαπνους??
Posts
46 comments:
Egw to ekopsa . kai epitelous mirizw. ase despinis tora sas katalavenw .alla ok se aniktous xorous as kanei oti thelei o kathenas alla se klistous as iparxei kapiou idous sevasmos.
αχ τι καλό το παράδειγμα σου... να δείς που θα το εφαρμόσω... κάθε φορά που καπνίζει κάποιος δίπλα μου θα βγάζω την κέτσαπ και θα πιτσιλάω ήρεμη το φαγητό μου αλλά και τους γύρω... χιχι!
Vous avez raison, chere mademoiselle! Έτσι, έτσι. Είναι πολύ σπάσιμο ρε παιδί μου!
Alo! An kai kapnisths, prepei na pw oti exeis dikio.. Nomizw omws oti pleon stous perissoterous kleistous xwrous (ok ektos apo mpar,klp) apagoreyetai, no?
Εγώ πάλι καπνίζω αισιως 2.5 πακέτα την ημέρα αλλά μισώ τη ketchup. Το καλοκαίρι βρέθηκα σε 2 σκανδιναβικές χώρες στις οποίες απαγορεύεται το κάπνισμα αυστηρώς σε όλους ανεξαιρέτως τους κλειστούς χώρους - χωρίς διέξοδο άλλη απ' το πεζοδρόμιο. Λοιπόν ακόμα και σε club μέσα ούτε που μου πέρασε απ' το μυαλό ν ανάψω τσιγάρο! (μου το θύμισε κάποια στιγμή ο κολλητός που μου πε να πάμε έξω να κάνουμε κανα τσιγάρο - το έξω ήτο ένα μπαλκονάκι τίγκα στα χαρμάνια χαχα - Αν κανείς δε καπνίζει και στο απαγορεύουν απλά το ξεχνάς το ρημάδι. Και την επόμενη μέρα τα ρούχα δε μυρίζανε κιόλας. Κοινώς αν ποτέ απαγορευτεί και εδώ δε θα με χαλάσει καθόλου και δε θα τ ακούω και απ τη Gogo και θα μ κανει και καλό στην υγεία! Μη κατηγορείς λοιπόν τους καπνιστές (τους άμοιρους κτλ) αλλά τους κολλημένους καταστηματάρχες που φοβούνται ότι θα χάσουν πελατεία. Φυσικά έχεις δίκιο για τη καφρίλα του να αναγκάζεις τον άλλον να καπνίζει το τσιγάρο σου.
o mogwai exei dikio. stin italia pou imouna gia x-mas, pouthena se eswteriko xwro den mporeis na kapniseis, opote anagkastika kratiesai kai esi.As to kanoun kai edw loipon, kai as mazevontai osoi theloun exw.Kapoia stigmi tha niwsoun toso parakatiana, pout tha to paroun apofasi na to kopsoun to rimadi.Kai egw kapnizw, alla otan den vlepeis kanenan allon dipla sou na to kanei, den exeis tin orexi na to kaneis.
Μπα δεν παιζει ανοχη απο τη δικια μου μερια σε ατομα που θα με κανουν παθητικο με το ετσι θελω. Αυτη η εξαρτηση μονο στους Ελληνες υπαρχει.
Πες τα Χρυσόστομη!!!
@loop
Bravo pou to ekopses, megalo vima. Zitw!
@trilian
Sa dolofonos, me tin ketsap mesa stin kapartina!
@proserpina
Merci madame!
@Spyros
Se kanena ma kanena kleisto xwro den apagoreuetai. Mono stis amerikanikes firmes tipou starbucks kai tetoia...
@mogwai
Ouf, niwthw tromeri dikaiwsi, nomiza tha me vrisete!
:-)
@arctic monkey
Mwre to idio isxiei pantou, kai NY pou eixa paei.. mono edw eimaste apolitistoi...
@brokenlink
Ti kaneis diladi? Paizeis ksilo sta magazia?
;-)
@Kotosalata
Thanxxxx!
Thanxxx!
Οχι, κουβαλαω ketchup μαζι μου.
αντε βρε μυγιάγγιχτη! εγώ το έχω κόψει ένα χρόνο και δεν με πειράζει καθόλου και στα μούτρα να μου το φυσάς. και επειδή έχω ζησει την πίκρα του να σε κηνυγούν για το τσιγάρο (στο εξωτερικό είμαστε στο Εντελώς άλλο άκρο) νιώθω βαθιά συμπάθεια για τον φίλο καπνιστή :)
Ίσος το καλύτερο παράδειγμα που έχει ειπωθεί ποτέ! Δεν έχεις δίκιο, έχεις ΑΠΟΛΥΤΟ ΔΙΚΙΟ!
@brokenlink
A, to eixes idi skeftei diladi...
@gelial
Apokalipsi! Etsi grafetai loipon to "μυγιάγγιχτη"...
Den to perimena auto apo sena geli, tetoia anwterotis!
@Snikolas
Ax, thanx Nikola, ta sevi mou!
igyαγαπητη, τοσο καιρο προσπαθω να το κοψω και καθε φορα που συμβαινει κατι 'καλο', παλι κυλαω... εχεις δικιο βεβαια οτι ειναι ενοχλητικο και αν δεν θεσπιστει να καταργηθει απο ολους τους κλειστους χωρους,τιποτα δεν θα γινει...σκεψου οτι απο τη μερα που κατηργησαν το καπνισμα στους χωρους του νοσοκομειου, ολοι οι γιατροι ειναι στις ταρατσες!!! για τους επισκεπτες,δεν το συζητω...με -10 στο προαυλιο του κυλικειου!!!! για εμενα ξερεις...αν δεν κανω ενα τσιγαρο οταν το χρειαστω, dear gogo γινομαι nuts...
Το προβλημα θα μπορουσε να λυθει αν χωριζαμε τα τσανακια μας.
Μαγαζι για καπνιστες και μαγαζι για μη καπνιστες. Κι αν καποιος της μιας ομαδας ηθελε να παει σε μαγαζι της αλλης, με γεια του με χαρα του.
Αλλ ποιος επιχειρηματιας θα το κανει αυτο? Και ειδικα στην Ελλαδα, οπου η υποχωρηση των μη καπνιστων μπροστα στις ορδες των καπνιστων ειναι κατι παραπανω απο αυτονοητη..
θα το κοψω το ρημαδι...
Όσο η πλύση εγκεφάλου της καπνοβιομηχανίας κρατεί καλά και οι καπνιστές θεωρούν πως το τσιγάρο είναι κουλ και πως εμείς οι άκαπνοι είμαστε απλά φλώροι, τόσο όσο και να γράφουμε, απλά μας γράφουνε.
@Our Man
Distixws exeis dikio, alla ti na kanoume? Ekstrateia gia tin anadeiksi twn mi kapnistwn ws pio "in" atomwn??
Skoura ta pramata!
Μπράβο το παράδειγμα πολύ καλό!
Se euxaristw!
To thema einai oti den arkei gia na siginithoun telika...
I don't know if you understand English, but let's try.
There is something fatally flawed in your ketchup example. Nobody forced you to go into the fastfood joint. You don't like smoke, stay out. You don't pay the store owner's taxes, nor will you make up for his losses if he doesn't allow smokers in just because ''missy'' wants her rouhalakia and mallakia to smell good.
In a public place that is covered by your taxes, that you're obliged to go, then you have every right to complain. Private businesses are just that: private businesses.
I hate french fries and the smell. I certainly won't go marching in to a fastfood joint and demand that they stop serving french fries because I want my hair to smell good.
Wake up fellow greeks before you see your hospitality industry go down the drain like many allegedly ''civilized'' countries like Canada, Australia, England, and France are experiencing. Don't let the health fascists that partner with the pharmaceutical industry change your dynamics only so they can sell pharmaceutical cessation products and make money while your hospitality industry will be starving.
And just in case you believe the rhetoric of smoking hazards. Yes smoking is not the healthiest thing around, but did you eveer ask yourselves why Greeks are the heaviest smokers in the world while they enjoy the healthiest lives in the European Union ? Think about that for what it's worth !
Of course I understand English, and I’ m going to answer you in English (my poor English) for those hospitality reasons you mentioned.
I see no connection between paying taxes and having the privilege of a good health.
I believe that everyone can understand that the “smelling” issue is just a simple aspect (quite important for me) of the problem called “tolerate the behavior of smokers”. Every one who goes to a fastfood joint goes for the same reason: to eat. He can wait that there will be annoying smell. But he goes there. He is going somewhere to do something, knowing the conditions that are expected.
Smoking on a private place is totally different.
I don’t care for the tourism and the pharmaceutical industry, I care for my freedom which you also demand but by breaking my rights for fresh air, health and good atmosphere. I wont die sooner just to brag about the industry richness.
And finally, “Heaviest smoker”??? Really funny, this would be called “oxymoron” !
Sorry for my English, next time in Greek, as you can understand!
I have no problem whatsoever understanding Greek. It's writing I can't manage. I am sorry, either you missed my point or I missed yours, but I can't make heads or tails of what you wrote.
You say that private businesses is a different story ? What the heck do you think a fastfood joint is ? A public place ? Are you the one that's going to pay the owner's bills when smokers will no longer be going or going less ? Of course not. With what right do you demand that he caters to your preferences ? If he decides to go non-smoking, that's fine it's his privilege. His money, his choice. But if he decides to stay smoking because that's what he feels will bring him more business, either live with it or eat your french fries somewhere non-smoking,better yet start your own non-smoking place with your money, or eat at home.
It takes a lot of nerve to demand that government caters to your choice no matter how bad this could be for a private business.
If private businesses thought that non-smoking was good for business, they would have gone non-smoking a long time ago. Obviously it's only a few whiners that are making it bad both for businesses and fellow citizens. Get over yourself. Your parents, grandparents and even great grandparents, didn't die with a whiff of smoke. Neither will you, neither will the rest of the non-smoking Greeks who live in the heaviest smoking country in the world yet are the healthiest people in the European Union. You avoided to explain that to me. Care to try again ?
Ωραία, για να μην κουραζόμαστε και οι δύο, δηλαδή εγώ, και να μη χάνουμε τα νοήματα, θα συνεχίσω στα ελληνικά.
Το ποιός πληρώνει τους φόρους και πως θα κερδίσει περισσότερα χρήματα για να τους πληρώσει είναι το τελευταίο πράγμα που πρέπει να ενδιαφέρει κάποιον ο οποίος προσέχει την υγεία του. Το μόνο σενάριο στο οποίο μπορώ να καταλάβω την εμονή σου σε αυτό το επιχείρημα είναι το να είσαι μαγαζάτορας ή ιδιοκτήτης καφετέριας και να σε πονάει το θέμα.
Αλλά ας είναι έτσι, ας πάρουμε αυτήν την εκδοχή. Η ουσία όλων είναι οτι η μάζα δεν είναι αυτή που έχει δίκιο.
Επειδή ένα πολύ μεγάλο ποσοστό της ανθρωπότητας καπνίζει και άρα απαιτεί να καπνίζει παντού για να το ευχαριστιέται θα πρέπει και όλοι να αναδιαμορφώσουμε τους κανόνες συμπεριφοράς και ηθικής σε κοινόχρηστους χώρους (ιδιωτικούς και δημόσιους) ? Και έτσι οι μαγαζάτορες να μη δισαρεστήσουν τους εκλεκτούς τους πελάτες και να μη μειώσουν την πελατεία τους? Ανήκουστα πράγματα μου λες, και νομίζω οτι τσάμπα προσπαθώ να σου εξηγήσω τα αυτονόνητα.
Στο σπίτι σου κάνε οτι θες, κάψε το. Αυτό ονομάζεται ιδιωτικότητα. Ένας ιδιωτικός χώρος όμως είναι και ΚΟΙΝΟΧΡΗΣΤΟΣ και απαιτεί το ΣΕΒΑΣΜΟ μεταξύ των χρηστών.
Εγώ δεν είμαι υποχρεωμένη να σεβαστώ το κάπνισμα σου γιατί αυτό είναι κάτι που με ΒΛΑΠΤΕΙ. Ο κάπνιστης είναι υποχρεωμένος να σεβαστεί οτι θέλω να προστατέψω την υγεία μου. You know, παθητικό κάπνισμα?
Δεν πιστέυω καν οτι αναφέρεις τη λέξη "κυβέρνηση" προσπαθώντας να επιχειρηματολογήσεις για το δικαίωμα του καπνίσματος. Έναν απλό συνήγορο των βιομηχανιών και του κέρδους.
Τέλος, δεν ξέρω που διάβασες αυτή την έρευνα για τη "heaviest smoking country in the world " (αν θες στείλε το link να γελάσω, πολύ ηλίθια ιδέα για έρευνα) ή για το οτι είμαστε οι "healthiest people in the European Union" (το οποίο μπορεί να ισχύει λόγω διατροφής, αλλά δεν το πιστέυω) αλλά το θέμα μας δεν είναι οι στατισιτικές, τα νούμερα, οι φόροι και ο πλούτος, αλλά ο ΣΕΒΑΣΜΟΣ ΤΩΝ ΑΝΘΡΩΠΙΝΩΝ ΔΙΚΑΙΩΜΑΤΩΝ.
Με την ίδια λογική ας επιβραβεύσουμε τους πολέμους και τους βορμαδισμούς. Τόσους φόρους πληρώνουν οι καημένοι οι βιομήχανοι και πωλητές σφαιρών και όπλων, πρέπει να τους αφήσουμε να βομβαρδίσουν μερικά από τα δισεκατομμύρια ανθρωπάκια....
Λυπάμαι για τη θέση που έχεις βρεθεί. Η λογική σου είναι χειρότερη και από αυτή του μέσου καπνιστή που αποκαλεί τους αντικαπνιστές ρατσιστές.
First let me give you the information you asked me for.
Unfortunately I have changed computers since the last time I bookmarked the EU report on health and Greeks that was all neatly packaged under one article, and can no longer find it on the net. Nevertheless, the following bits and pieces, come to about the same result:
First for Greeks being the heaviest smokers in the world. I should have said in the developped world, my apologies. Many newspaper articles keep saying they are some of the heaviest in the world, however after comparing with some underdevelopped countries, Greeks lose somewhat of their ranking. Here's the documentation:
Then look at the Greek smoking prevalence in men on the table on this link for further proof:
http://www.euphix.org/object_document/o4754n27423.html
Ok, so now that this is out of the way, let's take a look at their health status:
Look at the life expectancy for men. Their life expectancy is the second highest after Japan. 78,5 for Greek men, 78,6 for Japanese men. By the way, Japanese are some of the heaviest smokers in the world as well.
http://americaninathens.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/lifeexpectancygender.gif
The above graph comes from the OECD – Health at a Glance 2007
Page 9 of: http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/ebs/ebs_186_en.pdf
Greece has the lowest incidence of cancer and
rheumatism, while Germany has the lowest rate of asthma (there is quite a difference
between the former East and the former West Germany, with East Germany having a 2.7 per
cent incidence and West Germany a 4.0 per cent incidence).2 Denmark has the lowest rate
of diabetes with 3.7 per cent.
Page 12 of: http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/ebs/ebs_186_en.pdf
Over three-quarters (79.5%) of all Europeans have been to a family doctor/general
practitioner in the last twelve months (see Figure 4), with a low of 57.6% of Greeks having
done so, and a high of 88.5% Luxembourgers having done so. In terms of regional variation,
Italians rank above the EU average, while Spaniards and Portuguese join the Greeks below
the EU average.
Comments for the rest of your post to follow.
Ωραία, για να μην κουραζόμαστε και οι δύο, δηλαδή εγώ, και να μη χάνουμε τα νοήματα, θα συνεχίσω στα ελληνικά.
Το ποιός πληρώνει τους φόρους και πως θα κερδίσει περισσότερα χρήματα για να τους πληρώσει είναι το τελευταίο πράγμα που πρέπει να ενδιαφέρει κάποιον ο οποίος προσέχει την υγεία του. Το μόνο σενάριο στο οποίο μπορώ να καταλάβω την εμονή σου σε αυτό το επιχείρημα είναι το να είσαι μαγαζάτορας ή ιδιοκτήτης καφετέριας και να σε πονάει το θέμα.
No I am neither magazatoras nor a cafeteria owner, but even if I were, this doesn’t make an iota of a difference in the logic. I am your everyday ordinary citizen who has researched on all countries where smoking bans were enacted based on lies, false statistics and exaggerations. I have witnessed smoking bans first hand in my own country and saw mom & pop restaurants and bars close, livelihoods destroyed, and even nervous breakdowns I have witnessed rapes, muggings, old people dying because they were pushed to smoke out in the cold and traffic. And this, in countries where the smoking rates are a lot lower than those in Greece. Before you ask, yes I have all this documented with links. All this, because you and other people like you, want your rouhalakia and mallakia to smell good! If you think that spending a couple of hours in a fast food joint, a full service resto or bar will harm your health, you’re far more brainwashed than I thought and beyond recovery. Just ask your parents and grandparents how they survived an era where almost everyone smoked. No, cigarettes are not made any different today than they were then and no, science hasn’t discovered anything new. They only discovered how to make money for themselves and their pimps -- the pharmaceutical industry – using social engineering and emotions to force people to stop smoking using pharmaceutical products. It’s a war between two giant industries as to who will get the biggest share of the nicotine market, taking smokers and business people as hostages!
Αλλά ας είναι έτσι, ας πάρουμε αυτήν την εκδοχή. Η ουσία όλων είναι οτι η μάζα δεν είναι αυτή που έχει δίκιο.
Επειδή ένα πολύ μεγάλο ποσοστό της ανθρωπότητας καπνίζει και άρα απαιτεί να καπνίζει παντού για να το ευχαριστιέται θα πρέπει και όλοι να αναδιαμορφώσουμε τους κανόνες συμπεριφοράς και ηθικής σε κοινόχρηστους χώρους (ιδιωτικούς και δημόσιους) ? Και έτσι οι μαγαζάτορες να μη δισαρεστήσουν τους εκλεκτούς τους πελάτες και να μη μειώσουν την πελατεία τους? Ανήκουστα πράγματα μου λες, και νομίζω οτι τσάμπα προσπαθώ να σου εξηγήσω τα αυτονόνητα.
Smokers are not the majority. In your country they constitute around 40% of the population. In my country they are around 20 – 25%. Non-smokers are the majority. However it is anti-smokers that are a tiny minority. Most people don’t care one way or the other about smoky environments. It is the vocal minority who has the money from interested corporations and makes the noise, that gets to lobby governments and gets legislations passed worldwide. I do believe you are entitled to dislike smoke and shouldn’t have to put up with it if you didn’t want to. In this sense, I believe the free market is capable of adjusting itself accordingly and cater to your needs. If enough people complained about the smoke, this would happen without the government poking their nose in private businesses. If it isn’t widespread, it’s because intolerant anti-smokers are the tiny minority as I said. Yet you want to impose your will on the rest of the population!
Στο σπίτι σου κάνε οτι θες, κάψε το. Αυτό ονομάζεται ιδιωτικότητα. Ένας ιδιωτικός χώρος όμως είναι και ΚΟΙΝΟΧΡΗΣΤΟΣ και απαιτεί το ΣΕΒΑΣΜΟ μεταξύ των χρηστών.
Εγώ δεν είμαι υποχρεωμένη να σεβαστώ το κάπνισμα σου γιατί αυτό είναι κάτι που με ΒΛΑΠΤΕΙ. Ο κάπνιστης είναι υποχρεωμένος να σεβαστεί οτι θέλω να προστατέψω την υγεία μου. You know, παθητικό κάπνισμα?
Don’t you worry. The anti-tobacco lobby is poking their noses in private homes as well. Several cities in the U.S.A. have enacted legislation in people’s own homes and cars now. They all started with reasonable demands and ended up controlling people’s lives in their own homes. Keep on buying into the hype and this is where your anti-tobacco lobby will lead you in Greece also in a few years. You had better think about it twice and stop it while it’s still time. And don’t you think for one minute that it won’t happen in Greece if you don’t act to stop it now. No one ever thought it would happen in North America either. But it’s happening and it’s too late to stop it. Pretty soon, we will have the healthy living Gestapo inspecting our refrigerators for traces of unhealthy foods we might be ingesting. I am sure your freedom is worth a little more than a little smell on your rouhalakia and mallakia! Passive smoking? Oh yes, of course. This is another chapter altogether. Passive smoking is the perfect excuse to get smokers to comply. We won’t get into this just yet. If you’re ever interested, give me a sign and I will show you studies about passive smoking and how they skew the results to get you to think your smoking friend is killing you ! lol. In the meantime, use your logic and question yourself how the baby boom generation was the most exposed since it had the most smokers and yet it’s the generation that will live the longest.
Δεν πιστέυω καν οτι αναφέρεις τη λέξη "κυβέρνηση" προσπαθώντας να επιχειρηματολογήσεις για το δικαίωμα του καπνίσματος. Έναν απλό συνήγορο των βιομηχανιών και του κέρδους.
Με την ίδια λογική ας επιβραβεύσουμε τους πολέμους και τους βορμαδισμούς. Τόσους φόρους πληρώνουν οι καημένοι οι βιομήχανοι και πωλητές σφαιρών και όπλων, πρέπει να τους αφήσουμε να βομβαρδίσουν μερικά από τα δισεκατομμύρια ανθρωπάκια....
Surely, you’re not comparing smoking and wars with a straight face are you ? This is deflecting and using fallacious arguments just to win a point in the debate. Please debate honestly.
Λυπάμαι για τη θέση που έχεις βρεθεί. Η λογική σου είναι χειρότερη και από αυτή του μέσου καπνιστή που αποκαλεί τους αντικαπνιστές ρατσιστές.
And exactly what position do you think I have found myself in? I respect all fellow humans as long as they respect me and respect democratic values. Anti-smokers are not racists, but their intolerance can definitely be compared to the same intolerance as racists of any kind.
You may want to read what Dr. Michael Siegel, a prominent anti-tobacco activist for the past 20 years, one of the fathers of modern smoking bans, has to say about bigotry (racism) in the anti-smoker world as it has become as of lately: Action on Smoking and Health Suggests that Former Smokers Not Be Eligible for Heart Transplants at http://tobaccoanalysis.blogspot.com/search?q=Action+on+Smoking+and+Health+Suggests+that+Former+Smokers+Not+Be+Eligible+for+Heart+Transplants
And just so you don’t think I am talking through the comfort of my anonymity, my name is Iro Cyr, I am vice-president of C.A.G.E. in Quebec. You can read more on C.A.G.E. at www.cagecanada.ca , and at the C.A.G.E. blog at www.cagecanada.blogspot.ca which I maintain current almost on a daily basis.
If you want to become as paranoid on health issues as Canada and many other western countries have become, then by all means keep on supporting anti-smoking that serves as model for every other issue starting with obesity. In no more than 5 or 6 years, you will be exactly at the same state of affairs as we the ‘’pioneers’’ have become. In our country, health fascists are just about to dictate to us how we should be making love. Western countries are hardly a good example to imitate when it comes to health paranoia. Trust me.
So, if I have understood correctly, you place more importance on profit than on health, do you?
"saw mom & pop restaurants and bars close"
Well, since you're such a free market advocate the answer is this: "Tough!". If they can't handle it, they can start a new business where they can serve both smokers and non-smokers alike, such as a kiosk selling newspapers (The thing that in Greece we call "Periptero"). I hate this kind of logic, but it's the one people like you always use when they can't win an argument : "If you don't like it why don't you start a business that... " and so on. This is what you are doing here: "better yet start your own non-smoking place with your money,". For starters not all of us have enough capital to start businesses. And some of us who have, might prefer to spend it on something else.
Also, you have to understand that "free market" doesn't mean "I-can-do-whatever-I-like market". If that is the case, then I have a business plan ready : I will start a business in Omonia Square selling heroin. I will sell it at a lower price that street vendors so I will attract more customers. Plus, there will not be a waiting list such as the one on the government's methadone programs for those that want to quit. Everyone can have their fix now! Of course I will mix the heroin with other substances in order to increase my profit margin. True, most of my customers will die, but with "word of mouth" I believe I can renew my customer base every 6 months...
Or better yet I could open an office, hire a few suitable employees and people would come and pay me to kill other people that they don't like... Why not? It's a free market isn't it? I can do what I want can't I? (In fact, I want to go out in Panepistimiou Street naked but I don't. Plus, If I did, gogo would post my picture in this blog within seconds... With comments...)
Let's get serious now. You're always complaining about the "pharmaceutical industry and its pimps" but I didn't notice any mention of the tobacco industry who have been trying to convince us that smoking is cool for so many years... (Is it because it is the industry in which you are currently employed as I suspect you are?) I don't think you are a bar or a restaurant owner as other people did, but a tobacco industry employee (executive more likely) looks like a good bet... Maybe you should watch "The Insider"
Anyway, I have been a smoker in the past and looking back I am not ashamed to say that I've enjoyed it. Yes, it felt good to smoke! But at some point it had to be stopped and it did. And I have never been racist towards smokers. I am not like other Greek male non-smokers who would never go out with a woman who smokes, or who force their girlfriends to quit smoking because "I am the man in this relationship and you will quit because I say so! or "Either quit or we break up!. If I love the girl I don't care if she smokes or not. I might suggest that it would be good for her health if she quits but that's it. Do you know that there are people in this country who believe that "a man can smoke on the street but a woman shouldn't". Is this racist (and sexist), or what?
You say that the government tries to dictate to us how we should be making love. The way you are making love, or the food you eat, or the alcohol you drink do not affect my life in any way. But the way you smoke, if I have to breathe your smoke, it does.
Life expectancy may be high among Greeks because we try to enjoy life (browse through this blog to see what I mean) and do not focus on "career, career, career" like some people do in some other countries. I have lived (and worked) in both the UK and the US, so I should know...
‘’So, if I have understood correctly, you place more importance on profit than on health, do you?
"saw mom & pop restaurants and bars close"
From everything I have exposed to you, you actually think that this is the only reason I am fighting back absurd legislation? It is indeed one of the reasons but hardly the only or the most important one. Does government encroachment in your everyday life leave you indifferent? It never ceases to amaze me how people will give up the liberty of their own will for some imaginary protection ! Oh but let’s not of course forget the smell of our mallakia and rouhalakia. But then again you, like other people will throw around the typical ad hominem attack that if I am in disagreement with the ‘’virtuous’’ side of the issue then I must be getting paid from tobacco companies. Others have accused me and other officials of the organization I represent of the same and have even officially accused us right on the net. They have been challenged to provide the proof or shut up. Still waiting. Let’s be very blunt about this, not only do I not receive a penny for what I do, but it is costing me money out of my own pocket for my activism. Why? Because I believe in democracy, in civil liberties and in people being able to take the right decisions for themselves. Proof: You did it. You quit without any heavy handed legislation shoving it down your throat. But even if I was being paid by tobacco interests, what difference would it make in the core of the debate? Why attempt to discredit the messenger? Please concentrate on the message which shouldn’t really matter where it comes from.
Your comparison of marketing heroin as opposed to tobacco is at best fallacious at worst laughable. You seem to be forgetting that as of the last time I checked, tobacco was a legal product on which governments collect sinful taxes. In Canada whether you want to believe it or not, a pack of 25 cigarettes costs close to $10.00 of which 75% goes to government. In nearby native reserves 200 untaxed cigarettes sell for $ 6.00 !!! Now, if you’re truly convinced that tobacco and its second hand smoke are the deadly product that the propaganda describes, then by all means, the only thing you should be advocating for is making tobacco illegal like heroin and other illicit drugs. Right now they are banning the user and leaving the product on the market while they are collecting ludicrous taxes on it. Why isn’t the WHO advocating for making tobacco illegal and closing down the manufacturing of tobacco? Because the economy around it is astronomical. Governments make money, the tobacco industry makes money, the pharma peddlers make money, the anti-tobacco lobbyists make money, the cessation ‘’specialists’’ make money ! And you have the audacity of accusing me of putting revenues before health? I think one of us two has their head buried in the sand and it certainly isn’t me! If the hypocrisy of demonizing your fellow citizens and getting all these money makers off the hook pleases you, then in my opinion, you have a case of misplaced priorities.
I don’t have to complain about the tobacco companies. Everyone is aware of the nature of their tactics by now. They have been scum and although they have cleaned up their act since (their survival depends on it) they will continue using tactics to attract customers, but isn’t this what every profit making business is all about? The immorality of it all comes more from governments who continue allowing these businesses to operate legally. At least everyone is informed about their tactics, but how many people can make informed decisions about the holier than thou pharmaceutical industry ‘’do-gooders’’ and the even more holier than thou public health authorities?
‘’Life expectancy may be high among Greeks because we try to enjoy life’’
There you have it. This is exactly what I mean about health paranoia that is making some super duper developed countries sick! I love my mother country Greece and if I am even on this blog, it’s because it breaks my heart to see people such as yourselves try to imitate the politically correct healthist philosophy of Western corporate mentality. Save your mom & pop and small business culture. Save the harmony among citizens in Greece. Do not let healthists destroy it!
i do not smoke and probably never will. but i agree with you "anonymous" because i also think banning smoking in public places is unconstitutional to say the least and a little bit fascist.
BUT! always lies a big, fat but. we live in greece, the country where everyone does whatever he wants without even caring if he bothers his fellow citizens. you live in canada, where at least there is some mutual understanding between citizens and the boundaries of human relationships. here in our beloved greece it's your death, my life situation. as long as i 'm having fun i dont give a rat's ass about other people.
that is the point of dear gogo.
she believes that smoking should be restricted in greece because simply noone respects another. not even shop owners. most bar, clubs in greece, even the most luxurious lets say, suck in health issues such as air conditioning and filtering. so if someone doesnt smoke, unavoidably will have to leave in a short period of time because the atmosphere is intolerable. noone gives a damn about fresh air as long as the majority, in our case the "smokers" are happy.
so, eventually i agree with gogo BUT only for greece the country of "to know us beta :P"
its terribly annoying what is happening in most places, almost nowhere can you enjoy your drink without coughing and "crying" because of the whola lotta smoke in the air! Its obsurd!
I was in Greece about 3 years ago and what struck me was that community spirit that we lack in our big and cold Canada. It left such a fine impression on me that the last thing I want to see is Greece turning into a non compassionate ''man eat man'' country. Obviously I didn't get out to many places, I mostly stayed with relatives, so I didn't notice the situation as you describe it. I did however see that bus drivers and even ambulance drivers were smoking, which to me was a kind of shocking view. I can understand and agree that there is a lack of respect in this sense in your country. I still think that education is the key and non-smokers standing up to smokers and asking them politely to butt out when they're too close to you and demand a little civility. But for goodness sakes, please don't allow government to start regulating your lives. Trust me you will miss the carefree spirit that characterizes your people!
Why is your government not enforcing current laws that offer some comfort to non-smokers by separating the sections ? If they can't enforce that law and everyone does as they please, what makes you so sure that they will be able to enforce stricter laws? A legislation is only as good as the extent to which it can be enforced.
You watch way too much X-Files, dude!
I had a look at your website and blog, and you know, that whole thing about how the government is watching us and wants to control all aspects of our lives reminded me of the X-Files. Spooky, Mulder!. The site would have been acceptable if it also dealt with other aspects of government trying to control our lives, like monitoring telecommunications, internet activity and collecting sensitive personal information before boarding an airplane. But no! By browsing through it, it's mostly about smoking, smoking, smoking!
Yes, the pharmaceutical industry should be blamed for many things. Like overpricing AIDS medication - But I didn't see you mention that!
Plus, here's something I found on the Montreal Mirror site: www.montrealmirror.com/2006/083106/letters.html. It's one of the letters to the editor (Cagey Tactics) where it says "On its Web site, CAGE asks for donations of up to $5,000 or more, saying, “It is on the corporate members that we depend the most for financing.” Corporations generally expect a return on their investment. The Web site says they are still debating whether to accept financial contributions from the tobacco industry". Debating? You shouldn't be debating at all. You should reject thoughts like this. Otherwise people will suspect that you work for the tobacco industry.
And please, since you do have a blog cagecanada.blogspot.com and not cagecanada.blogspot.ca, please sign in when you post comments here with your Blogger ID. You're not anonymous anymore. You, yourself told us who you are! I would hate to see my favourite blog turn into PRESS-GR. Have a look at press-gr.blogspot.com to see what I mean...
First of all I am not a dude, I am a ‘’dudess’’. Secondly yes my organization has been accused of being a front for Big Tobacco. Water off a dolphin’s back in our case. Anyone that goes against ‘’virtue’’ can be accused of anything. Nothing less true in our case, but it’s irrelevant. Yes when CAGE started it did hope for donations from corporations to help see its mission through. It even hoped for tobacco money because the founders were naïve enough to think that it didn’t matter who financed the message as long as what was spoken was sensible and the truth. Never got a penny from Big tobacco and thank goodness it didn’t. Can you imagine the criticism if it ever did? It did get a few ‘’peanuts’’ from a couple of restaurants but mostly from members who owned their company and chipped in to help. It hardly covered the expenses of incorporating the organization, paying for the website, advertizing and office expenses. It hoped to be able to pay for the salary of one person to look after the day to day operations and keeping the website updated with current events. It didn’t happen. The organization still owes its founders money. But what difference does that make? What exactly are you trying to prove?
CAGE decided against applying to government for funding. It wanted to stay completely independent of government, albeit it was entitled to funding. Therefore, CAGE hasn’t got the financial means to hire fancy writers and analyzers to cover thoroughly every aspect of government encroachment in our lives. Should that stop us from trying to bring to light at least some? We rely on benevolent work from our members, many of them are smokers that are living under oppressive laws in Canada therefore it’s only natural that they cover what hurts their day to day lives the most. Since we all have to make a living in our private lives, and since not too many like to work for free and since apathy is unfortunately a modern characteristic, my apologies for not being as thorough as you would have liked us to be in both official languages (French and English). By all means, submit an article on any issue that interests you if that’s all that’s stopping you from finding any good in CAGE. And if you find no good in CAGE, please stop reading. I am not shoving anything down anybody’s throat. It’s very easy to demolish the work of others when all we have to do is sit back and criticize.
I am sorry, I am not very computer literate and still don’t know how to log in properly with blogger and I haven’t got the time to fiddle around with that, and frankly if you think that I am polluting your blog just by my ‘’anonymous’’ standing, then may the owner of this blog express her request for me to never post again and I won’t. This is her blog, her right not to welcome me here anymore. I am no spammer and frankly I have a lot of important work to do in my own country. I just thought I would pay a visit to Greek blogs to see what’s happening on that side of the Atlantic. If my writing has planted a little seed in one reader’s mind in this blog to get him/her thinking, then I have accomplished all that I hoped to accomplish on my Greek mission.
stop talking about smoking! enough is enough!
in canada you have one of the best music scenes in the world! lots of innovative and talented music bands! respect!
By the way, I don't know if you read French, but medication for ''less profitable'' diseases was covered under http://cagecanada.blogspot.com/2008/04/philanthropie-quand-tu-nous-tiens.html
Of course as you would expect, I cant answer to your thoughts one by one, as there are a lot of statements written down here, and I am really glad of that.
Honestly, my Anonymous friend, I have not problem of you being anonymous, as I am also and everyone else here in some way. I am just a nickname and nothing more.
I care only for your opinion and others also.
So you can keep on expressing yourself here.
But, I see things in life quite differently. The thing is that I would never support of a solution which would demand to stop smoking on a totally private place. You asked for legislation concerning separated places on a room here in Greece. Indeed, this exists here but, what a miracle, it is almost never implemented and if you ask me, this is not enough. It is not just separating spaces, it would need a full rearrangement of a place so as to be sure that smokers do not affect non smokers.
Anyway, I don't make decisions based on numbers and organizations. I do not support anyone except for myself having on mind the common sense of what is right and what is wrong.
But, because you don't know how is the situation here in Greece, and to not be worried, there is no legislation here in Greece to be followed and at the same time to cause stopping amusing relaxing habits of citizens. Meaning, even if government wold decide to stop smoking on public places, you would see the next day that everyone would smoke more and more on public places....
That is way non smokers are so frustrated, cause there is no feeling of respect here in Greece when it comes to someone's habits. This is what PAP DX and toolman were trying to explain. Too must freedom here in Greece->Anarchism...
And something else, that "mallakia rouhalakia" I suppose that is vert funny to you to mention it, but to me sounds quite ironic and irritating when whether you like it whether you don't, my mallakia and rouxalakia (and HEALTH) are very important for me as for everyone.
Canadian musicians are really great!
You are of course correct about the rouhalakia and mallakia repeated comment that indeed may come through as very sarcastic and I apologize. Who am I to decide what’s important and what is not for another person? I have sinned by comparing our unbearable situation in Canada on the smoking side of the spectrum and the aggressive attitude we get from anti-smokers, to your situation which seems to be the complete opposite. There is a happy medium and a compromise can be reached.
The president and one of the founders of CAGE is a non-smoker who won’t even allow people to smoke in his own house because he dislikes smoke so much. It’s his house, his right and privilege. This doesn’t stop him from denouncing government encroachment and unnecessary overregulation that turns people into ‘’healthy’’ drugged up automatons exploited by filthy rich corporate interests.
However, I have to caution you that you are wrong as far as regulation is concerned in Greece. What pushed me to come and see what’s happening on your side of the Atlantic, is an article that I read on regulation in Greece that will be banning smoking in all hospitality venues as of 2010 ! As far as enforcement is concerned, allow me to doubt from what I make of your comments, that they will be able to enforce it. I am afraid that all it will create is civil disobedience, unnecessary financial suffering on the hospitality industry, and ill feelings between smokers and non-smokers just like it did in countries where smoking prevalence is a lot lower than Greece. It's a shame !
Ban on smoking by 2010
Greeks, among the heaviest smokers in the world, will be running out of places to light up in a few years as the government moves to adopt European Union guidelines protecting people from passive smoke.
The Health Ministry announced yesterday it will gradually ban smoking in public places, such as cafes and restaurants, by 2010.
Read the rest at: http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_100014_08/04/2008_95254
Following the above announcement from your health minister, I will post some prophecies here. No, I am not really a prophet, but I have seen it all too often.
Readers of this blog can at least say they were warned and they know something more than their other fellow citizens.
1) As the moment approaches that your government will implement a ban you will be reading in your media about polls that were conducted and something like 70% of the population agrees with the ban.
Is that true? Partly. They are not really lying, but they are not reporting all the facts either. Of course given the choice, non-smokers, who let’s not forget are the majority, are all too happy to see smoking taken outside. However these same non-smokers have no objection whatsoever that separate areas or a certain percentage of establishments allow smoking. But….the polls either don’t ask the question that way, or they don’t report it that way in the news. They simply report that 70% of the population agrees with bans without mentioning that they would also agree to separate smoking places from non-smoking.
2) Then you will hear that business picks up after smoking bans because non-smokers start going out more.
Is that true? Noooooo. A total lie. As many businesses have found in other countries, business drops substantially and many restos and bars close !
3) You will also hear that even smokers are happy about this because it will help them quit or at least control the smoking.
Is that true? Partly. Yes there are a number of smokers that think that way, however the majority will complain bitterly and will either protest and try to defy the ban or stay home. What they also won’t tell you is that there are a fair number of non-smokers that find the bans absurd and an attack on civil liberties and in this sense they fight smoking bans even though they don’t affect them personally.
4) Then they will throw away studies at you that have proven that after smoking bans, heart attacks fall. They will show you studies in Piedmont Italy, in New York, in Pueblo Colorado, in Helena Montana and in Saskatchewan, Canada.
Is that true ? Nooooooooo. Big fat lie. Heart attack rates fluctuate up and down, they just pick and choose places and periods of time where heart attacks have dropped and try to convince credulous people that it is the ban that’s doing it.
5) The pharma industry will inundate you with commercials for their nicorette, champix, zyban, inhalers and patches. Then the next thing you will be hearing is that your government will be covering for the expenses of these therapies !
But most of all, you will be hearing over and over and over how bad second hand smoke is. The propaganda will be deafening. Get ready for it.
Now I will leave you all alone. Unless you have any questions or you wish to discuss anything further, I will let you discover the developments for yourselves.
Your name makes sense now. If I am not mistaken your name is the Greek name Ηρώ, isn't it? But why, all this time was I under the impression that I was talking to a guy with a beard? Well if you google "Iro Cyr" the first thing that comes up is a picture of Dr. David Romano... Sorry about that.
I am not going to discuss the issue anymore, I don't want to argue, because believe me you have nothing to worry about. No matter how much legislation is passed, people in Greece will still be able to smoke. In fact, even if smoking is banned all over the world, people will visit Greece to smoke. This doesn't worry me a bit as a non-smoker because Greeks always find a way to co-exist happily with each other, no matter what legislation is passed. (In fact Greece is famous for passing legislation that is never applied).
Only thing I would like to ask you (and everyone else here really) is this: How do you feel about the Greek stereotype that "A woman should not smoke in the street" (whereas a man can practically do what he wants)?
I was stunned when I read in a magazine the other day "Don't flirt with women who smoke on the street. The will probably eat in bed..."!!!
PS. And apologies to Gogo for all these arguments on this space...
‘’Your name makes sense now. If I am not mistaken your name is the Greek name Ηρώ, isn't it?’’
Yes it is. And not to worry, if I had a nickel for every time I have been called Mister, I would be rich !
‘’This doesn't worry me a bit as a non-smoker because Greeks always find a way to co-exist happily with each other, no matter what legislation is passed.’’
Apo to stoma sou kai stou theou t’auti ! I hope you’re right. I still have my doubts but we’ll talk to each other again in 2010 :-)
‘’Only thing I would like to ask you (and everyone else here really) is this: How do you feel about the Greek stereotype that "A woman should not smoke in the street" (whereas a man can practically do what he wants)?’’
At one time I would have been appalled. But as I am getting older and perhaps a ‘’little’’ wiser, I can accept certain stereotyped behaviors. This is what makes the flavor and identity of a nation. As a woman I would of course qualify anyone that would suggest such a thing as a rabid chauvinist, but when you think of it, tradition is what keeps people together. Kai sto katw katw who cares what other people think of you when deep inside you know who you are and what you’re worth with or without a cigarette in your mouth.
One piece of advice from an older woman: Preserve your unique Greek flavor with all your might. If I could move to Greece tomorrow, I would. As I have said previously, you still have that warm community spirit that is so typical of our people and it’s the traditions and church that keeps it all together. Unfortunately I have children and grandchildren keeping me here. And no, I am not religious. I only look at religion as a binding tradition!
And what’s this about Canadian music you enjoy so much? Give me some examples.
first of all you have grandchildren? να σου ζήσουν!!
now for the canadian music dear Iro. The thing about canada is that always music bands from this place have unique sound and talent.
i cannot explain it really, it must be something in the water xaxa!
the most exciting thing about canadian music bands is that they aren't so many, but most are really talented as i said. its all about quality over quantity.
some examples : "rush", prog rock guru's, one of the finest if not the finest prog rock band ever
"voivod", metal band undeniably ahead of their time and innovative
"skinny puppy", "frontline assembly" in industrial sound also considered masters of this kind of music
and contemporary bands are : "the arcade fire", indie alternative rock lets say, excellent band and the newcomers "holy fuck" in electrorock sound, also quite impressive band.
also there is nelly furtado, Alanis Morissette and many which i surely forget.
Some links that might be of interest to you:
This one from Ελευθεροτυπία shows that there are indeed Greek people that question governments' motives as you wished there would be.
This one, also from Ελευθεροτυπία is more of a humorist approach, showing what a Greek smoker thinks of himself.
And finally this one from Yahoo! which is the thing that I really hate because these people were actually smoking in an area designated for smokers. And they got fired because they lied in order to get hired! This is what your organization is all about.
And finally one question: Isn't the situation for smokers supposed to ne better in Canada compared to the US?
Nice conversation we have here. I read those articles provided by PAP DX and once again, the thought that came up to my head was that I am ok about allowing smoking on really private places, but this argument like "free smoking->happy life, better health" makes me go insane.
Ok, what about what makes me happier, a non smoker? If you are happier when you are free to smoke anywhere, then I am happy when I don't have to suffer by your smoke.
Another thing is the Greek stereotype that PAP DX mentioned: "A woman should not smoke in the street" . I have no idea of that and I never heard something like that. Am I missing something?
And then Iro said: "tradition is what keeps people together".. Oh my God... Ok, so we should keep for tradition reasons a lot of things as they where many many years before like no voting right for women and no education right (even older)! I never expect that a woman would support a so preservative point that enforces the inequality between genders.
Anyway, I see no reason why to worry our sweet sweet heads (:-) on this issue when there are ARCADE FIRE to listen! Xixii!
@Toolman
Thank you for the music info. Man oh man do I ever feel old now! The only one I know from the list is Alanis Morissette. Sad state of affairs isn’t it? Lol
@Pap-DX
Your links were very interesting, thank you. The first one (although the Greek was a little too fancy for me to fully comprehend and appreciate) is indeed in line with C.A.G.E. philosophy. I think I will add the link to the CAGE blog for Greek readers.
About the Yahoo article. Yes I had read it this morning. Whirlpool are not the worst in the U.S. on smokers. I do have a problem with charging more for health insurance for smokers only, if that’s indeed what they’re doing. If they are using the $$ excuse to charge smokers because of their unhealthy habit, what about the obese, the diabetics, the drinkers and anyone who doesn’t fit their idea of a model citizen? However, the smokers have accepted the job under these conditions, they have signed that they were not smokers and they were caught smoking. They lied. Could these employees have gotten another job that doesn’t treat smokers this way? I can’t answer that because I don’t know what the unemployment situation is in Indiana, so I am not ready to condemn nor condone them. Some info is missing before I can express an objective opinion. But there is worse than Whirlpool, starting with the WHO. The WHO will not hire a smoker, period. Smokers need not apply and it doesn’t matter if they smoke 2 or 3 cigarettes only, at home in the evening. Again, WHO (pun intended) the hell do they think they are to segregate people like that? WHO’S next ? The obese, the drinkers? Absurd. And there are many many companies like this in the states and increasingly in Canada and probably England.
For your question. Canada is a pioneer in tobacco control along with Australia, New Zealand and Ireland. Canada has comprehensive bans meaning you can’t smoke absolutely anywhere indoors. The only place allowed is cigar bars BUT it’s illegal to smoke cigarettes in cigar bars. They do not allow private smoker bars or clubs, and even if you rent a hall for a private party where everyone agrees that it is a smoking party, it is illegal. So again, nowhere indoors except for a handful of cigar bars, 40% of hotel rooms and your home which they have now started attacking as well. All provinces have a 9 meter law in true public buildings like hospitals for example! Meaning that if you’re hospitalized and even condemned to death, you have to drag yourself outside carrying your ‘’oro’’ 9 meters from any hospital entrance to smoke. Is this barbaric or what? 4 people have died in Canada of hypothermia because of this crazy law. In the U.S.A. it depends on the state. Only approx half of the states have statewide bans and some of them are a lot less strict than Canada. For instance in some States you can smoke in a bar, a private club, a restaurant after a certain time or if it doesn’t allow minors. Many have municipal bans where cities decide. Some cities in California you can’t smoke anywhere at all, even on the street. If you’re smoking in your car you must pull your windows up so that you don’t pollute the outside, never mind how much your car pollutes. Crazy or what?
It’s a crusade, as simple as that. Don’t you think for one moment that it’s for nonsmokers health. It is a twisted, hypocritical way to force smokers to quit whether they want to or not. All the while tobacco is still a legal substance from which everyone makes money while the smoker has been turned into an outcast.
@Gogo
It is now 1:00 am in Montreal and I am beat. I will answer your comments tomorrow or the day after.
Cheers all.
Iro
@gogo
I guess I will answer you tonight after all since I have no idea when I'll get another chance. I am very busy these days.
See the whole argument here resides in your definition of a private place. I will repeat again that a restaurant, bar, café or night club that a business man or woman has built with his own blood swear and tears, is not a public place. It is a private place that invites the public. The public is not forced to go there and as a matter of fact the owner can forbid you from entering if he doesn’t like your face or the way you act. For those who are afraid of second hand smoke, a simple sign on the door mentioning ‘’this place allows smoking, please enter at your own risk’’, gives the person the choice. I can sympathize with you that you too would like to have places to go to. But this is no reason to trample on private property rights and democracy. If you can build enough support to create a market demand for smoke-free place, then kudos to you. It would have been brought about the right, natural way without having to run to a father government to deliver you from your problems. And no it’s not comparable to laws such as serving germ free foods, cooks not washing their hands, or mice and katsarides crawling around at night. The difference is all these hazards to your health are hidden from you and you have no way of knowing. For cigarette smoke, you can smell it as soon as you walk in, and if the ventilation is so good that you can’t, you can certainly see it, and if that’s not good enough, the sign on the door will do the trick. I personally would be much happier with complete prohibition of tobacco than trampling on democratic values of dictating to private owners that they should not allow a legal product in their venue. I would respect you and people like you if you in fact pressured the government to stop being hypocrites, to stop collecting taxes, to stop pandering to tobacco and pharmaceutical companies, and if they think that tobacco is such a deadly product, BAN IT!
You are correct Gogo. We can’t, nor should we turn the clock back to different times in the name of tradition. I guess I am being nostalgic of traditions. I have totally had it with political correctness but that is no reason that women should not go forward to demand respect and equal treatment. I loved what I saw in Greece 3 years ago. I guess I am trying to desperately cling to Greek values and preserve them, but heaven knows they are not all good !
Well, my first thought was that Gogo was lucky never to have heard that stereotype. The first time I heard it was when I was in University by a fellow 19-year old Greek student who was also a smoker. You would expect a 19-year old to be more open minded. God knows how he would treat his wife if he got married.
"Do you smoke in the street?" I asked him
"Yes" he answered
"So why don't you like women who smoke in the street?"
"Because... because it's not nice!"
I thought that was all in the past until I read it again in a Greek so-called "lifestyle" magazine a week ago:
"Don't ever hook up with a woman who smokes in the street. If she smokes in the street she will probably eat chips in bed"
Personally I would love to eat chips, or oranges, or tangerines or any other food for that matter in bed in the company of a woman. But then again, maybe I am a pervert!
Serves me right for reading this type of magazines. It was Gogo who said "Do not read beauty magazines they will only make you feel ugly". Maybe I should add "Do not read lifestyle magazines, they will only make you feel worthless"
gogo oh gogo "A woman should not smoke in the street" . I have no idea of that and I never heard something like that. Am I missing something?"
are you kidding???? in which planet do you live? maybe you should hang out more with jimatos! xaxa!
papdx she is kind of lucky that she have never heard that but she is also "εκτός τόπου και χρόνου" xaxa! wake up gogo and smell the greek air!
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